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Bob Of Burleson
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1st Post Wed Aug 20th, 2008 02:43 am | |
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Next Mazda Rotary to be Hydrogen Powered
InventorSpot.com
Mazda has played a huge role in making the Rotary engine as popular as it is today. Beginning with the RX-7 and evolving into the RX-8, it has made quite an impression on most of the people who experience its potential. Now, Mazda is moving the rotary into the alternative fuels category, which should only increase the already growing fan base.
Mazda's rotary engine has always been known for its power, but it was lacking in the fuel economy department. Emissions were also a little under par with other vehicles of comparable size. The answer to this problem can be found in the use of Hydrogen.
The next generation RX-8, which will most likely be named the RX-9, will feature a dual-fuel capability. It can run on normal petroleum fuel and offer the performance that we have come to expect from the Mazda Rotary engine. When you feel like cutting some emissions and the amount of fuel you are burning, you can switch over to Hydrogen. Mazda reports fuel economy increases of up to 20 when running on Hydrogen.
As with all things, there is a downside. That 20% drop in fuel consumption will cost you about the same percentage under your right foot. Mazda is predicting that most people will use this to run around the city until more performance is needed, at which point petro will be switched on.
Mazda has been working with the Hydrogen powered RX-8 for over 8 months. The current prototype, called the RX8 HYDROGEN RE, has been a complete success. The newer Premacy MVP has also seen its fair share of tests and seems to be holding up very well.
The next-gen RX-8 will come in either a close ratio manual or the less enticing automatic gearbox putting power to the rear wheels. Mazda has also hinted that it will be taking styling cues from the Taiki concept originally seen at the 2007 Tokyo Motor Show. Sales should start sometime in 2012.
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Bob Of Burleson
...And the smell of gunsmoke
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2nd Post Wed Aug 20th, 2008 07:24 pm | |
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Are you turning out hydrogen in vast quantities yet, Robert?
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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3rd Post Wed Aug 20th, 2008 07:37 pm | |
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A few design difficulties. I haven't figured out what to do about the drastic increase in amps the HHO generator experiences after being opperated for ~ 1 hour. It makes its own electrolite and the longer you use it the more it makes.
That effectively creates a short circuit, which will burn up a battery, alternator, or any thing else you use to power it.
You can only opperate the thing for ~ 1 hour, and then you have to change the solution out.
Besides all that, it didn't get better milage.
Last edited on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 07:41 pm by Robert
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Burley Glen
Whatever...
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4th Post Wed Aug 20th, 2008 07:52 pm | |
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| COOL! Might entice me to buy one! Now, where's that Hydrogen station...
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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5th Post Wed Aug 20th, 2008 08:18 pm | |
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Burley Glen wrote: COOL! Might entice me to buy one! Now, where's that Hydrogen station...
You can make your own hydrogen station and fill up in your garage.
But if your going to use electricity to make hydrogen to run your engine, why not just put that electricity into batteries, to turn a motor with?
An electric motor is ~ 90% efficient, batteries are ~ 80% efficient, while an internal combustion engine is only ~ 30% efficient. You would be loosing a little over 1/2 the power in the electricity that you started with.
The only reason to use hydrogen that I can see is if you do not want to buy a new car as any car on the road right now will run on hydrogen.
As far a new goes, a gas / electric is going to provide much more efficient use of energy.
Home based hydrogen refueling:
If you don't want to build your own you can buy one , just plug it in.
http://gas2.org/2008/07/09/company-unveils-home-based-hydrogen-refueling-station/
With a few modifications, you can run any engine out there with it.
Last edited on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 08:49 pm by Robert
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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6th Post Wed Aug 20th, 2008 08:40 pm | |
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The draw back to electric cars is you got to re-charge them, and it takes time to do that. You don't want to take off to Austin and have to stop in Waco for 3 hours to re-charge.
If you have enough batteries to get to Austin, then you got a car full of batteries. That is adding a lot of weight, and removes the efficiency. It also means your dealing with deadly voltage and amps.
But a gas / electric hybrid eleminates that problem. When the batteries go dead, crank up the engine.
But while your using the bateries, (before they go dead) your opperating on ~ 90% efficiency verses ~ 30%. Around town your probably ok to recharge at home for the next trip and ~ 4 batteries will do the job, i.e. ~ 48 volts.
Hydrogen is only useful if the ~ 70% of wasted energy your engine is now producing as heat, can be turned back into fuel. Hydrogen refueling stations are not going to be progress on the efficiency scale and you still have to burn hydrocarbons to make the electricity to make hydrogen. So the green folks are not going to be happy. CO2 is not reduced.
It would be reduced by using your engines heat to produce hydrogen, as it would in effect increase gas milage.
If were dealing with limited resources, and oil / natural gas is still the starting point whether you use hydrogen or electric, then electric is much better, because how efficiently you use the oil / natural gas, it the most important thing. 90% verses 30% , is a big difference.
If all the oil / natural gas were first converted to electricity and we all ran on electric motor driven cars, it would effectively increase the power we get form the oil by ~3 times. Thus increasing our effective oil reserves, ~ 3 times. Simply becasue an electric motor is ~ 3 times as efficient as an internal combustion engine.
BobE pointed that out a few weeks back.
Last edited on Wed Aug 20th, 2008 09:00 pm by Robert
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Bob Of Burleson
...And the smell of gunsmoke
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7th Post Wed Aug 20th, 2008 11:08 pm | |
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| Robert, why doesn't the gasoline part of the Prius engine simply recharge the batteries while you're driving? That's what happens with the one battery on a regular car.
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Burley Glen
Whatever...
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8th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 12:23 am | |
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| I don't agree with your physics of the production of hydrogen, but my head hurts to much to argue with you right now...
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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9th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:01 am | |
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Burley Glen wrote: I don't agree with your physics of the production of hydrogen, but my head hurts to much to argue with you right now...
The physics of producing hydrogen is pretty simple. You get a + & - plate stick them in water, and collect the hydrogen. It is what your using it for that is not efficient, i.e. burning it in a car engine. Because the car engine is only ~ 30 to 40% efficient.
You could use the same electricity to run an electric motor directly that is ~ 90% efficient. Well via a battery which is ~ 80% efficient, so together they are .9 * .8 = ~ 75% efficient.
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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10th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:04 am | |
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Bob Of Burleson wrote: Robert, why doesn't the gasoline part of the Prius engine simply recharge the batteries while you're driving? That's what happens with the one battery on a regular car.
If I understand the gas / electric hybrid right, it does. But I haven't really looked at them to be sure.
I'll read it and find out.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car.htm
this one is better
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car2.htm
Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:15 am by Robert
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Bob Of Burleson
...And the smell of gunsmoke
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11th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:06 am | |
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| If that's true, then why isn't the Prius charged up when you put it in the garage after a 200-mile trip?
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BWG
Semi-Retired
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12th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:06 am | |
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Yea, my head hurts too.
I think the concept behind GM's Volt is solid. You use the electric motor only for propulsion, and use the gas engine to recharge the batteries when needed.
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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13th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:18 am | |
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It looks to me that they way they are gaining, is because the electric motor is regenerative. That is when you push the brake the electric motor becomes a generator, and recharges the batterys.
The lions share of energy used in city driving, is for acceleration, so there putting that back into the loop which leaves for the most part all your engine has to do is over come wind resistance and friction.
Just a guess here, but I would be willing to bet that a hybrid gets better milage in town than on the highway.
If they were using the engine to recharge the battery , well that is not very efficient. You start with the energy in gas, run it through the engine, loose ~ 70% of it, then put it in a battery loose 20%, and then put it in the electric motor, loose 10%.
What your getting out of the gas is then .4 * .8 * .9 = .28 The weak link there is the gas powered engine. That is optomistic because were giving the engine a .4.
Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:27 am by Robert
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Bob Of Burleson
...And the smell of gunsmoke
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14th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 01:47 am | |
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| I can see where you wouldn't have enough energy to charge the engine and turn the wheels, too. So why not have a small, efficient auxiliary motor that would do nothing but charge the Prius batteries while it's running on the gasoline engine? It shouldn't take a motor as big as a minute to charge batteries.
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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15th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:05 am | |
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Bob Of Burleson wrote: If that's true, then why isn't the Prius charged up when you put it in the garage after a 200-mile trip?
You can't get 100% efficiency.
If you use x watts of battery power to accelerate from 1 to 60, then thurn the motor into a generator, and deaccelerate, you got a 10% loss powering the motor and another 10% loss, in the generator.
round trip that is .9 * .9 = .81 efficient. Every time you accelerate to 60 and then back to zero, you loose ~ 20 % of the power it took to accelerate to 60. Which is better than loosing all of it which you would if the motor was not regenerative, i.e. able to be used as a generator on deacceleration.
You have returned after acc and de-acc only ~80% of what came out of the battery. For the battery to not run down it would have to be 100%. Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:11 am by Robert
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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16th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:18 am | |
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Bob Of Burleson wrote: I can see where you wouldn't have enough energy to charge the engine and turn the wheels, too. So why not have a small, efficient auxiliary motor that would do nothing but charge the Prius batteries while it's running on the gasoline engine? It shouldn't take a motor as big as a minute to charge batteries.
That is fine if you want a way to not be out in the boonies and get stranded because you ran out of juice.
But keep in mind that the gas engine is ~ 30% efficient. Say your running your engine on natural gas. You put 1000 btus worth of natural gas into the engine, then the energy you get out of charging a battery is ~ 30% of 1000 btus. or 333 btu's
If you instead put the 1000 btu's worth of NG into running a generator which produces electricity, you get 900btu's out. (generator is 90% efficient.)
Thus you get ~ 3 times the charge on the battery for the same amount of natural gas.
So plugging into the wall at home is by far the better route.
Internal combustion engines are very inefficient because so much of the energy going into them is used up in friction, and heat.
Compare that to an electric motor. There is no cylinders rubbing up and down, no explosions, or heat from explosions. All there is is bearing friction, maybe a small fan, and a little heat. You certainly don't need a radiator to carry off heat from it because there isn't that much. They don't get up to 600 degrees. If they do there burn up .
Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:22 am by Robert
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Robert
Custom made bra fitter
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17th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:27 am | |
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You see TBone is wrong. If we took the natural gas that we are using to make electicity and put it into our cars, we would be loosing ~ 60% of the energy we are currently getting out of the gas.
It would be much better to hook up an electric bouster motor on your car, and use the natural gas to power that motor. You leave the natural gas right where it is, and use his wind mills to make more electricity because if you use electricity to power your car were going to need more of it.
That accomplished taking the load off of oil and placing it on wind mills.
Doing it that way, you would be using less than 1/2 as much natural gas to get the same cars the same number of miles down the road.
I would go with turning the cars currently on the road into gas / electric hybrids and I would look at ways to turn that ~ 60% of wasted heat into elecrticity to charge batteries with.
One obvious way is a tail pipe made out of thermocouples. At 100 watts each and 10 of them making a tail pipe, that is 1000 watts to plow into batteries to run you electric motor with.
In short, you crank up the engine, let it idle, to run the AC, radio, etc, use the electric motor for your power, and the engine exaust to charge the batteries along with the regenative electric motor.
Your effectively idleling down the road, have all the amenaties you normally do, and at nothing but idle your going to get fantastic gas milage. Your not going to need a lot af charging up at home, and if you do run out of battery juice, you got the engine in reserve.
You in effect taking that 30% efficient engine and making it more efficient by using the heat it produces along with powering your car with a 90% efficient motor rather than a 30% efficient motor.
It would cut our oil use in 1/2 and actually cost the consumer less in fuel cost.
Another way to use the heat would be to run a steam engine, that turns a generator, that charges batteries that runs a motor.
Another way is to use either thermocouples, steam or both to make hydrogen to burn as fuel.
Bottom line is were not getting nearly what we could be getting out of the oil were using. We are waisting ~ 60% of it.
Last edited on Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:57 am by Robert
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Bob Of Burleson
...And the smell of gunsmoke
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18th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 02:10 pm | |
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. . .
General Motors has made clear statements that it will start taking orders for the Chevy Volt from U.S. consumers by the end of 2010. (Volt pictured above.) Last December, I attended a General Motors showing of its Chevy Volt - an elegant four-door sedan. One GM designer admitted that the Mercedes CLS gave some inspiration for the Volt. The Chevy Volt can be driven 40 miles in electric-mode using 16kW of lithium batteries, before its small one liter engine is engaged. 16kW is twelve times the storage of my Prius NiMH batteries.
The Volt uses an electric drive system with a small ICE (internal combustion engine) in series that is only used to generate added electricity, not give power to the wheels. GM’s modular E-Flex propulsion could be adapted to various engines including diesel, fuel cells, and potentially battery-electric. At the Frankfurt Auto Show, GM showed the European sibling of the Volt, the GM Opel Flextreme concept car, which included a 1.3L diesel engine.
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Robert
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19th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 04:22 pm | |
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It doesn't give the range after the engine kicks in. If the engine, "in series" doesn't provide any push to the wheels, will it keep up with the drain on the batteries while your driving?
I doubt it. With out the back up abality of using the engine to drive the wheels, you can still get semi stranded.
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The state has become a modern idol whose suggestive power few men are able to escape. ~ Albert
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Bob Of Burleson
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20th Post Thu Aug 21st, 2008 05:29 pm | |
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"The Chevy Volt can be driven 40 miles in electric-mode using 16kW of lithium batteries, before its small one liter engine is engaged."
Sounds to me like you could keep moving as long as you've got gas in the tank. Wouldn't that 1-liter engine be the Volt's main engine and the other one referenced an even smaller one for the batteries?
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